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Copernicus
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Legitimate F-Zero 2?
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I was looking at the MFO rules and I noticed that it says only times submitted with the cartridge or on the Wii are acceptable, and roms are not.  Since F-Zero 2 was never sold as a cartridge, but had to be downloaded off the BS network, isn't it technically a rom?  Or is the term rom only used to refer to downloaded versions used with computer emulators?  What would count as a legitimate copy of F-Zero 2?  Is the only requirement that it be running on an actual Snes?

Uchiha Madao
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all copies that aren't physical are roms.

the Wii ones are allowed because you can't use any extra features that weren't in the original game and the rom they provide is identical to the original game. basically, it is an official emulator and is equal across all areas.

BSFZ2 is a special case where the rules don't apply completely because technically there's no physical copy so there wouldn't be WRs if we follow the rules. you could do like WMJ and run it on a SNES using a special cart (i think that's what he did. hid vid didn't look emulated) or record emulated gameplay without any savestates (i don't know if there's a way to prove you didn't use savestates)

this is one of the things the VC should have fixed but nintendo completely ruined it and didn't release the games that would have benefitted from the service the most (no BS or 64DD releases in sight).

"Patience is useful in any moment"
JkLoser
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I quick question then: Would it be allowed to play it through gamecube? I won't bother playing it, but I thought I would ask so other will know :)

Old and tired... ;p
Uchiha Madao
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well, if we have to rely on emulators, then all of them would count.

"Patience is useful in any moment"
Copernicus
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So special cart versions do count.  That's the real reason I started this topic.  I located a special cart version for sale on the net but didn't know if it would count.  It was expensive so I didn't want to waste my money.  In the BS F-Zero 2 topic here how many people posted times set with emulators and how many of them were set with legitimate versions?

Uchiha Madao
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hmm, you could ask them to be sure who used what.

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Sami_Cetin
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I played one of the versions on a rom a while back, but i lost the file i think now. If anyone has one that could send to me would be great.

I hope i can find a cartridge copy for snes/sfc some day, would be nice to have one. I did see one online somewhere ages ago and yes for a fair amount of money. Worth investing in though Smile

samurai goroh
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Check PM ;)
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Sami_Cetin
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Cheers dude,

Much appreciated.

Sami

WMJ
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To my knowledge it only isn't allowed to play a rom on a non-official emulator and submit times you get that way. Normal game cartridges also contain a ROM of the game so banning playing a ROM doesn't really make sense to me. I played BS-F-Zero 2 using a flash cartridge for the SNES. That way you can play it just like any other game on the SNES without any additional options.

Uchiha Madao
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i see what you mean.

i'm going by what is common. the data inside a game cart is almost never referred as a rom even if it is one technically.

playing from a flash cart is fine so if you use one there shouldn't be a problem. if nothing was modified, it is as if you had a satellaview system with the game in it after all.

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Guy_Perfect
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ROMs can be fluked on a flash cartridge. I can easily edit something to make my machine's base speed a wee bit faster for a relatively un-noticeable advantage.

I say if it's not the original Stellaview cart, it shouldn't count.

Uchiha Madao
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hm that's a valid argument.

it seems no one will be able to set real WRs for now since a real satellaview cart needs to download the game form a network that was shut down in the early 00s. unless someone actually has a satellaview cart with the game in it that is but that's quite unlikely since most sellers sell their stuff in "clean" state.

not that it would be a problem since we don't even have a ladder for that.

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WMJ
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Guy_Perfect wrote:

I say if it's not the original Stellaview cart, it shouldn't count.

That would suck since Stellaview doesn't even exist. I will not bother getting the Satellaview cart since it's practically impossible to find. It is also impossible to see if I play on a flash cart when I record a video anyway. Tweaked machine speed should be noticeable with close video analysis and you could also do that for the regular game and play that on a flash cart.

Recently discovered there is a website that sells F-Zero 2 carts (reprogrammed carts from other games but nicely with a label and all). The price is a bit high but this is still the easiest way to play the game on a regular SNES/SFC.

http://www.gamereproductions.com/products/BS-F%252dZero-2%3A-Grand-Prix-%252d-SNES.html

Copernicus
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I'm assuming that's what was meant by a flash cart version, unless there's another kind of cart that can be run on a snes.  The problem with a sateli-cart is that if someone can hack a rom onto a snes cartridge they could also hack it onto a sateli-cartridge.  If someone wants to cheat they'll find a way no matter what.  We're trying to decide the rules for people who aren't trying to cheat.

Some people who use emulators aren't trying to cheat.  They play the game the same way they would on the original hardware.  But we still don't allow emulator times because of the fear of cheaters.  People don't even need emulators or hacked cartridges to cheat.  They can just submit times they don't have.  We can't check the data in the game, so we'll never know.  MFO itself is running almost purely on faith and honor.  Has everyone on the X ladder submitted video evidence to prove each of their records?  No.  Are the players willing to submit videos to prove all their times?  No.  Is there an F-Zero staff member willing to watch 16,000 vidoes of players' bad times to check if they're legitimate?  No.

What's worse:  someone who isn't trying to cheat who is breaking the rules, or someone who is trying to cheat but fails to do so?  Technically speaking my GPL times are in direct violation of the time attack rules because the rules state that only records displayed on the records screen can be submitted.  On some tracks I am not submitting the records displayed on my record screen because they were set using LVTT and LVTT is currently banned.  I've had to keep track of non-LVTT times externally in an excel spreadsheet where I keep track of all my times.  In order to be in compliance with the time attack rules I would have to buy a second copy of GPL and get all my non-LVTT times on it, or erase all the records on my current cartridge and get a new full set of times.  I haven't done either.  I assume people know this.  I also assume it doesn't bother them because they haven't complained.  If you people are going to start complaining, it's not a problem for me.  Getting another GPL cartridge is easy.

The time attack rules aren't just to prevent cheating.  They're also to promote fair play, good sportsmanship, and a decent competition.  I don't know if only allowing original copies on a sateliview will accomplish that or not.  That's something for us to decide as a whole.

If I got a snes cartridge with a copy of F-Zero 2 on it I wouldn't be trying to cheat, and I'd be assuming the rom on the cartridge would be unaltered.  I'd have no way of knowing since I don't have an original to compare it against.

Uchiha Madao
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doesn't GPL have 2 savefiles? couldn't you use the second file to set the other times?

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Copernicus
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GPL only records one set of records.  The different user accounts do not have separate records, the only difference between the two are the user names.  It's similar to F-Zero X and GX.  Those games also only record one set of times but you can manually insert a user name for each record.  In GPL the game automatically inserts the name of the current user account.  The only thing having a second user account does is allow you to submit times with a different user name.

After I got LVTT and it got banned I thought creating a second account would solve the problem.  But since the game only records and displays one set of records, all my LVTT times are also displayed in the other account.  The game only sorts records from best to worst time and not by the name attached to the record.

Owning multiple copies of a game isn't out of the ordinary.  In GX people have to own multiple memory cards in order to compete in Max Speed, Open, and Snaking.  Some people even own multiple snes cartridges so they can compete in laps and blaps.  Some mario karters own both PAL and NTSC versoins of games and compete in PAL and NTSC separately.  I've been planning to get a second GPL cartridge anyway, a japanese one, so I can play the e-reader tracks.  I haven't gotten it yet because I was waiting for when I actually get some of the e-reader cards.  That may take a long time so if my non-compliance with the rules is going to be an issue I can just order the japanese cartridge now.

fzm
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cgi.ebay.com/BS-F-Zero-2-RARE-Satellaview-Super-Nintendo-Famicom_W0QQitemZ230460623890QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVideo_Games_Games

close enough  to real tho im guessing its not very legal

besides the fact that the cover art is from climax

Copernicus
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It's also too expensive.  It's cheaper to hire the video game reproduction's guy to manufacture a new one.  And of course it's illegal.  Manufacturing copies of a game and selling them without Nintendo's permission is a violation of copyright and patents.  The rules at MFO don't say the copy of the game you're using has to be legal.  They just say it can't be emulated, and that you can only submit times achieved with "the game cartridge."  The question is does a snes cartridge port of F-Zero 2 meet all the requirements of the time attack rules.  If it does then snes cartridge port records are legitimate and we would have to allow them on a F-Zero 2 ladder if we ever have one.

WMJ
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fzm wrote:

cgi.ebay.com/BS-F-Zero-2-RARE-Satellaview-Super-Nintendo-Famicom_W0QQitemZ230460623890QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVideo_Games_Games

close enough  to real tho im guessing its not very legal

besides the fact that the cover art is from climax

That's exactly the same I linked too only this seller is trying to sell it for way more than the website that sells these carts (which are just reflashed Eeproms anyway). With a flash cart I meant a cart that you can connect to your PC with USB and put any game on you like to play on a real SNES. That's what I used to record my F-Zero 2 videos. The point is that if I use that and record videos from the SNES I can not possibly use save states. That's why I think videos like that should be sufficient proof for the records. Any hacks to alter the game speed can also be done on the regular F-Zero and then put on a flash cart (or any other game for that matter, there is also an N64 flash cart). So, for anyone that is determined to cheat they can still do it like this by hacking the game but I think that these alterations in game speed should be noticeable in the video and can also be done with Gameshark. If there ever is going to be a competition for this game these kind of carts need to be allowed imo because if Nintendo isn't ever going to release F-Zero 2 on another platform there is practically no way to ever own it legitimately.

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