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    Index » F-Zero SNES » F-Zero SNES out on Wii U VC (plus deciding how to allow it) Goto page Previous  1, 2
Uchiha Madao
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F-Zero has been released on Wii U's eShop and costs 30 cents until march 21st in both America and Europe. it is a good time to get the game as fast as possible if you have a Wii U since the game's going to get normal prices after the promotion is over.

but there's a catch with this version. those that have 3DS handhelds and have got GB VC games could see this coming but Nintendo has added the ability to make a savestate of the game while you play it. this savestate can be then loaded as many times as you want until you make a new one. this enables you to potentially have infinite retries for any of the GP mode tracks since you could make a savestate just before the track and then retry the track until you get a PR, just like how you can do in Practice mode.

the big thing here is that you could also make a savestate after a good lap and then just retry the other 4 until you get a decent one. you could basically almost TAS the game in real time by saving and reloading savestates as much as you want.

i had a brief discussion with darkeye when i was streaming FZSNES the other day and we think only the first situation should be allowed. make a savestate before a track and play the full track when attempting a PR. this makes attempting a PR in tracks like WL2 and FF a lot more tolerable since you wouldn't need to play the whole cup just to get 4-5 shots at a PR every time.

making a savestate in the middle of a race would be banned to prevent the abuse of the feature and people using the Wii U version would need to record videos of their PRs to be accepted in the ladder. the lck of a video would make it impossible to verify if the person used savestates or not.

of course, this is just preliminary and i already got a PM from edward to record a video of this feature in action, so the discussion is pretty much just starting. i'll have the video ready tomorrow and it would be good if people start discussing this here first.

here's a highlight of how i used the savestates in GP mode while playing to beat the game in expert: www.youtube.com/watch

"Patience is useful in any moment"
Uchiha Madao
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 it'd be very hard to detect as pointed out and save states are already allowed anyway.

 

btw, you guys want to give some input before the rules are updated to include the SNES Classic? like, any specifics and how it differs from Wii U VC? i still don't have mine but i'm pretty sure you guys understand this game a lot more than me for this stuff.

"Patience is useful in any moment"
zewing
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 Well we're in agreement there's nothing wrong will allowing savestates, it's more like we're trying to ensure that all "information" that leads up to the fast lap is captured in the video, me and Ed are trying to iron out a few updates to the rules to include all devices and ways in which savestates are incorporated in this game.

As far as differences between SNES Classic and Wii U VC, I guess I'll detail a little bit and include SNES (ignoring Wii VC since it's the only thing that doesn't have save state feature)

Wii U VC:

Only allows for one save state. 

As for the Wii U itself, it has 480i and 480p Standard Definition Resolutions (composite / component) , then it has 720p, 1080p, and 1080i HDMI High Definition Resolution

The input delay is also terrible.

 

For the SNES Classic:

Allows for 4 savestates (called suspend points)

Has a rewind feature that captures up to (not sure if accurate) 40 seconds of gameplay at any given time to let you "rewind" to a suitable part (this is probably a feature geared more towards perfect play attempts or 1 live attempt challenges)

Has very minor input delay, though naturally all HDMI devices have some latency.  For this it seems like it's incredibly minor, to me personally I'd compare it to upscaling through a framemeister, just a little better than that.

Only does 720p over HDMI

The in game console options lets you do of the 3 screen modes: CRT, 4:3, and Pixel Perfect.  

Very minor note, but the explosion when falling off a course and sound have been turned down.  I've also read that in other games like Earthbound that has many strobing lights effects, these have been reduced.

 

For SNES

Must use a gamesaver in order to create a restore point.

Only captures in 240p resolution (analog only)

It's analog, so it has the best latency when combined with use over a CRT

 

I should also note that F-Zero is on the New 3ds VC, but capturing from a 3ds is probably beyond the realistic scope of this discussion

Uchiha Madao
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 oh yeah, i forgot about the New 3DS release since that one is so impractical. i think we should still have knowledge about it just in case. there might be someone who only has a New 3DS and that release to do runs.

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zewing
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 I think later on we can always add that in but I have no idea how the new 3ds vc works, whether it has savestates or not.  

edward406
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Alright, so I discussed some rules with Zewing to add for fast laps. The following rules apply to anyone who is required to submit video proof for WR or FZC bests. People who don't need to submit video proof need only pay attention to rules two and three. The following italicized text comes from both Zewing and I:

In order to maintain a fair level of play across all fast laps:

(Note: The use of the phrase "save state" in the following text refers to any kind of save state from a SNES/SFC game saver, restore point from a WiiUVC, and suspend point from a SNES/SFC Mini)

1)Use of a save state must be shown in the recording before the start of the lap:

    -for SNES/SFC game savers, this means showing the frame before activation of the save state, which is generally a black screen

    -for the WiiUVC, this means showing the main menu where the restore point is activated

    -for the SNES Mini, this means showing the home menu where you select the suspend point

2) S-Jet activation before lap entry: There are a few laps where S-Jet activation starts well before the start of the lap. Some examples are PORT TOWN I, PORT TOWN II, and SAND OCEAN. Save states must be set before any S-Jet is activated that leads into the fast lap being attempted. This applies for all fast laps.

3) Entry for DEATH WIND I, DEATH WIND II, and FIRE FIELD: All of these fast laps use an arrow before entering the lap. Since sufficient player input is required to hit those arrows in the right spot, save states must be set in such a way that it is before the player touches the arrow. With that, the player must also be required to give the machine input to move it into the arrow after activating a save state (i.e. if a save state is activated and the machine can move into the arrow without user input, then the fast lap is void. Also, unpausing the game does not count as user input in this case).

4) Recording start time for non save state players: If a save state is not being used, in general try to show around at least half a second before the first S-Jet is activated before entering the lap. For DWI, DWII, and FF, try to show around 2 seconds before hitting the arrow.

5) In general, we are trying to enforce rules that make it so all significant inputs that are interwtined with the fast lap itself, are a part of the recording. The above rules try to cover this. Since strategies can change at anytime for fast laps, so may the rules. If you see something or try something new that is not part of the rule set and you think should be, please advise an FZC moderator or post about it in the forum/ this thread.

 

Also, since everyone appears to be in agreement in regards to optimizing entry into fast laps by using save states, I will add a note about the legality of that in the rules section for clarity.

Lastly, if we have competitors who chose to use 3DS, the same kind of things mentioned above will apply to that version as well.

If I don't hear any reasonable objection to the above rules over the next couple of days, I will post them to the rules page.

@ Mandalore: I took a look at my 22"24, it appears I got lucky and got an entry that was about as optimized as it could be.

 

"It's the F-Zero spirit!" -Yazzo
zewing
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 @Mandalore I'm sorry for missing this question, in response I'm more than satisfied with tying a time to the frame or beating it by a frame, if my time is behind by .01 due to the game's timer not being on the right oscillation , then that's all right by me.  I've never set up any of my fast laps even when I used the gamesaver to ensure I was on the proper oscillation because that would imply tha the time I'm trying to hit is maxed out, which is not a good mind set to have since there's still a lot of time to shave in this game, no matter how hard that shall be.

I don't see any other rule that needs added, though I do believe other f-zero games could use us as an example for setting up their fast lap rules.  From what I've seen, other f-zero games don't have such simple fast lap entries, though I know in X if AGG is used, players almost always showed the AGG setup.

And to clarify about the time for the gamesaver, I guess to mention how it works.

The gamesaver unlocks a few button combinations when a game is played on it.  By pressing R and Select together, a savestate is created.  By pressing L and Select, the last created savestate is loaded up (there's also a slowdown and a speed up button combinatino but that's not relevant to the discussion ; they are L + start and R + start).

When you save or reload a state, it blackens the screen for about a half second.  The music will continue to play as usual (sometimes it messes up, I've had some janky big blue remixes going on).  I just want to make sure this particular way of restoring a state is clarified.

Example: Hit a wall, attempt definitely a failure, save state is loaded, half a second passes and we're back to the start of the fast lap.  This little sequence should be captured, but only at the very least 1 frame before the black screen.

I have 2 vidoes that use the gamesaver but unfortunately I only captured the frame after the restoration, which is my bad.  

JkLoser
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So I've been debating how I feel about this save state, and I think it's awesome that people wanna use it, and I'm always for "If someone wanna play a game a certain way, they should be allowed to". So I'm not coming in here to say ban save states, cause obviously people want it. However when we start updating the ladders more, I want it to be filterble, and forced to say if you used save state or not.

 

My point is for me to use a save state to speedrun, is cheating in my book. I know Zewing told me it's just like doing it on real hardware, but instead of wasting time, you can go over and over again. But that's still cheating in my book when it comes to speedrunning. Again, if people wanna run it this way, they should be allowed to. I'm even for allowing turbo controllers, as long as I can filter away the times that does(not that it matters in the f-zero).

 

So for me as a player, that might return one day, most likely not, but I might still do it, wanna do it with the limitations of what originaly was there, and if I do, I don't wanna compare my times with people that uses save states, cause they play a different game than me.

 

So my point is basicly: Please make sure people can filter away save-state times. Also, make sure now that save state wr's starts coming up, to preserve the old non-save state wr's some how, cause it will be intressting seeing the devolopement, but also to preserve the history.

 

Edit: Just in case there's sensitive people here that might think I'm calling players cheaters for using save states, which I might have done in some way here, I wanna make it clear: I see it as cheating for myself, or more like taking a shortcut, and I don't like to do it, if others do it, I'm fine with. I think turbo is cheating in any way, still love to watch rpg speedruns(which usually uses turbo's). If I would use it, I would feel like I was cheating, but if others can do it without feeling like that, they should be free to do so.

Old and tired... ;p
Yazzo
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I've never really been into fast-laps, and not sure I'll ever return playing the game again, but I think these rules are fine for what it's worth.

I also agree with JkLoser that it would be good to be able to filter save-state and non-save state times for fast-laps on the ladder in the future -- just like how it would be equally nice to do the same for best openers and best 1-boosts. I'm not sure though if the same is needed for 5-laps, although I think that case can probably also be made, especially for FZSNES.

To make it clear what I'm saying here: I don't think these times should be ranked differently, and therefore valued differently i.e seen as different WRs (which I think PAL and NTSC times should be, but that's another discussion), but just that we should be able to sort the times differently on the ladder. This view I think is similiar to how times set without Side Attacks in GX are not ranked differently, but just seen as an opted restriction by the player.

(Not agreeing with JkLoser on allowing Turbo Controllers though =P.)

zewing
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I don't really understand why there's a need to add a filter to fast laps that use a save state vs. ones that don't (I'm assuming this is directly tied into new site functionality).  A big blue fast lap of 24'04 is the same whether a save state was used or not before the fast lap even began, the only difference is we're not wasting 4 laps setting it up.  PAL / NTSC has merit in separating but Wii U VC has been out since 2014 (i think) and it's already been established to be fine. As it stands, if someone wants to restrict themselves to not using save states, that's fine, but I don't really think it deserves having it be recognized, similar to the NonSA ranking in GX, but at least there, nonSA at least makes the lap look different and has a legacy behind it.  If anything, some sort of legacy can be added to the wr history for snes showing the records pre-save state era, but that's just my opinion 

 

JkLoser
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zewing wrote:

I don't really understand why there's a need to add a filter to fast laps that use a save state vs. ones that don't (I'm assuming this is directly tied into new site functionality).  A big blue fast lap of 24'04 is the same whether a save state was used or not before the fast lap even began, the only difference is we're not wasting 4 laps setting it up.  PAL / NTSC has merit in separating but Wii U VC has been out since 2014 (i think) and it's already been established to be fine. As it stands, if someone wants to restrict themselves to not using save states, that's fine, but I don't really think it deserves having it be recognized, similar to the NonSA ranking in GX, but at least there, nonSA at least makes the lap look different and has a legacy behind it.  If anything, some sort of legacy can be added to the wr history for snes showing the records pre-save state era, but that's just my opinion 

 

I find it arrogant of you to say it's no difference, when you say in the same sentence that you don't waste 4 laps setting it up. And on tracks with traffic, you can defently change how the traffic affects you really easy, and in 2 seconds. without save states, you can't. Having the advantage of the momentum of doing the same lap over and over, and not having to take 1-2min break with other strats, to get to the actually attempt is an huge advantage. And they defently deserve to be recognized for the reason alone imo.

 

Using GX nonSA ranking is kinda the opposite for me, cause in GX you intentionally put an hindrance on you, to do something that is slower. in snes you might not do that cause you play on original hardware, or is like me and believes save states of any kind has no place in a speedrun.

 

All I'm asking for is to be able to filter away the times I find irrelevant, and as long as there are enough uniqe times of any of the "restriction" there should be an option to remove those time(like GX: customs, side attacks, maybe even quick star).

Old and tired... ;p
Uchiha Madao
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 i can see JkL's reasoning since he had a similar reasoning with PAL vs NTSC in GX.

one of the factors to improving is spending time playing the game. cutting out the "dead time" (doing the useless 4 laps before a flap attempt in GP) is one way to be able to have more time to improve your flap since you save extra hours in the long run to attain a certain skill level that someone who doesn't have savestates doesn't have. it's a different kind of advantage. while, for most of us who saw savestates as a break from the torture of wasting time between attempts, others might see it as an unfair advantage due to their hardware not having the feature or preferring the original console. it's one of those things that have complicated things with the introduction of new tech.

this can also serve as a preview of what might come once emulator is allowed alongside the other options.

i think the filter is the best way to do it but it will take time since FZC's ddevelopment is slow.

"Patience is useful in any moment"
JkLoser
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Uchiha Madao wrote:

 i can see JkL's reasoning since he had a similar reasoning with PAL vs NTSC in GX.

one of the factors to improving is spending time playing the game. cutting out the "dead time" (doing the useless 4 laps before a flap attempt in GP) is one way to be able to have more time to improve your flap since you save extra hours in the long run to attain a certain skill level that someone who doesn't have savestates doesn't have. it's a different kind of advantage. while, for most of us who saw savestates as a break from the torture of wasting time between attempts, others might see it as an unfair advantage due to their hardware not having the feature or preferring the original console. it's one of those things that have complicated things with the introduction of new tech.

this can also serve as a preview of what might come once emulator is allowed alongside the other options.

i think the filter is the best way to do it but it will take time since FZC's ddevelopment is slow.

I'm in no hurry. I don't plan to play this game again yet, but at some point I might :) Save states is awesome for practice, but I just can't bring myself to use them as an advantage in a speedrun.

Old and tired... ;p
edward406
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Okay rules are updated on the rules page. If anything needs to be changed or fixed, let me know.

Also @ Mandalore: the other day when I was talking about maximizing entry with save states, I wanted to clarify that I'm referring to how far the Fire Stingray is into the lap before it starts, and not anything to do with whether the timer advances 01" or "02 on the first frame. I didn't realize at first you were referring to the timer.

Here is a picture to illustrate what I meant:

The photo on the top left, bottom left, and bottom right are all the first frame of entry to a fast lap. In the PTII frame, the entry is worse compared to the MCI frame.

The photo on the top right has two lines drawn in it. The yellow line represents the middle of the Fire Stingray's shadow, and the orange is the very middle of the finish line. As far as I have observed, the first frame in which the yellow line is past the orange line is when the first frame of the lap starts. The bottom right photo is the frame right after the top right photo, and is also as mentioned, the first frame of that lap.

Before suspend points, the entry into fast laps was random. With suspend points, entry into fast laps can be optimized to be more like the bottom left photo.

 

 

"It's the F-Zero spirit!" -Yazzo
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Sorry for the extra post, but I forgot to mention one more thing. The WR page has been updated to denote which times use save states.

"It's the F-Zero spirit!" -Yazzo
Uchiha Madao
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 i did some research on the 3DS version of FZSNES.

suspend points work just like on Wii U. it's harder to load them between attempts since they require touch screen input (on Wii U it's just another button). if you don't mind your screen getting dirty, i guess it's just as fast.

there's just one suspend point like on Wii U. this version lacks button remapping. pixel perfect mode is nice for the 3DS screen but my N3DS lacks a capture card so i dunno how it'd look when captured. it might look better than the older releases with the correct setup since Wii U VC lacks pixel perfect modes for SNES games but SNES classic mini also has that.

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I've probably been the first player to have legally made use of save states in F-Zero so I have some thoughts about this too. You can have your opinion Joel but it's still pretty harsh to use the word "cheating" to summarize your standpoint about this. It's cheating if it goes against the rules of the site and that’s not the case. You also can’t have it both ways saying “it’s cheating” and at the same time saying “it’s fine if people do it”. That’s like saying “I’m fine with people cheating” once the double standard is lifted. I’m aware that the rules have been different in the past, they have been more true to what the game originally had to offer. We took it for what it was even if it meant sacrificing a lot of your spare time to go for certain records. I have to acknowledge how the game (even with all its flaws) was respected like that and it seemed like common sense to have it no other way.

F-Zero (SNES) was far from ideal when it came to going for records on the fly, which to me always seemed like a very attractive feature to have. God knows what the developers had in mind when they only made 7/15 tracks available for immediate time attack, not to speak of flaps which they probably didn’t even consider at all even if lap times are clearly documented. I think this game might have been made with the mentality in mind that lap times are just part of full races and that’s it. Same goes for using several S-Jets in one lap during a race, it allows for different tactics during the race but still with the full race in mind. To my knowledge the early japanese record holders have disregarded flaps almost entirely and only by the early 2000’s the first serious flap attempts appeared online. It dawned on players that there’s another challenge to go for besides the obvious full races. Of course with the game as it is, it came with some spadework which probably was the reason why setting records in that category never really took off. They stayed underdeveloped for the longest time until Edward entered the stage. He managed to give the records (including flaps!) in F-Zero a complete overhaul while still honoring the old ways. Of course in doing so he still wasn’t able to put his full potential into all the courses equally. The same goes for other prominent players like Legend who could for example never show his class in WL2 and FF most likely because of how the game works. It simply favours you to play some courses over others just by how the tracks are ranked in their respective cups. You’ll just happen to play MC3 more often than Fire Field for example and that’s just for full runs. Some flaps fall behind way more because of this not to mention their general disregarding because of how time-consuming they are. This is the main problem that F-Zero had, not really being able to play all the tracks equally. I think that’s something that crossed a lot of players minds: What if I could play F-Zero freely? (without these arbitrairy restrictions)

The option of save states (on official consoles even) seems to solve that problem and you can enjoy time attack in a completely new, non-restrictive way. Now you could argue that you turned F-Zero into a „new game“ but I don’t see it that way. The experience of the game is new but not the game itself. There are players who would really like to go further in this game and it would be just shameful to see things not happening because of some people blindly trying to defend the old ways while not seeing how many good opportunities this new way offers. I know Edward always felt uncomfortable with the idea of having to break that seal of honor but I’m glad Zewing pushed him to that point now.

I’m also in favour of having to somehow acknowledge the records that were set without savestates so players can compete against either. If a player wants to compete the “old way” he’s welcome to do so and compare his times to records that were set this way. Edward and Legend have set a strong foundation for that. If a player wants to use save states and compete like that then so be it, welcome to the future. That’s still better than to not have a player at all (Zewing is a good example here). I think the aforementioned filter in the ladder isn’t necessary. Instead the records should be marked somehow (with a small logo?) so you can see right away if a save state was used or not. It serves the same purpose without having to split the ladder which a filter would do, it would show different rankings. I’ve already dropped a PM to Cole so hopefully something like this will be implemented also on the WR history sites.

Yazzo
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I just want to emphasize in case it wasn't clear that I don't see this as some sort of cheating either. I agree with TBK and I find it quite troublesome to call something "cheating" when it's not seen as cheating according to the rules. We've had problems with this in the past as well where prominent members of our community have proclaimed certain things as cheating even though the rules says otherwise, and it really doesn't lead to anything good when that happens (which I think JkL should be able to relate to in some ways). These rules really makes a priority to make the competition more accessible, which I fully think is the right way to handle things as we move into the future and (hopefully) see new generations discover competitive F-Zero.

I do agree with JkL though that it would still be nice to be able to see what the best times set without the use of save states are. I just think it's worth preserving such information as it's been the way we've competed in these games for a long time prior to the introduction of save states. To me it's very similiar to also keeping track of best openers and best 1-boost laps etc.
 
It may be sufficient enough to just have a mark next to the times which indicates if people used save states or not, but I do think there's value in being able to filter times as well to get a better view of what the fastest non-save state times are, or what the best openers and the best 1-boosts are (without having them be different ranks that counts to your score).
 
If this can't be implemented into the ladders, then it may just be sufficient enough to list the best times on the WR history sites. But I do think it would be more optimal if it was possible to have this information directly on the ladders instead. I personally am interested in seeing not just what the best times were at a particular time, but also what peoples best individual times are as well, and this would hopefully be possible if we had filters added.
JkLoser
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 Had written something but it didn't go through cause I included a link :p so I will write it shorter and faster this time :D

First of Tim:

Never said it was cheating according to the site, said it was cheating according to my way of speedrunning. And I can say that something that's cheating to me, should be a category. BTDD(Battletoads and double dragon NES) has a category, the most run at that, that's turbo controller. I think it's cheating, I still think if there's people that wanna run it that way, they should be. It's not like they are ruining the fun for anyone else, cause they are seperated from the leaderboard that doesn't use it.(you can look up the leaderboards yourself at speedrun homepage)

And how can you say it doesn't need a filter? X has 2 ladders, gx has 3 ladders, only cause people doesn't wanna play those games optimal. I want a filter, for people that doesn't wanna use something that isn't included in the game from start. 

Secondly to Yazzo:

Cheating is a strong word, but at the same time I can't lie, that's not me. However I wanna clearify the difference from the hate I got to what I am saying here. I got harashed on msn, skype, from players that basicly told me I didn't deserve my rank and that I could never compete with the best players that didn't play the way I did. They told me I was the reason players stopped playing GX, cause I made the competition not fun. I'm not saying anything of these things, All I'm saying is for me, it would feel like cheating. I'm not saying I won't ever play this game because you allow save states, or cause people use them to set times. All I'm saying I wanna be able to compare myself with the people that play by the same rules as I do.

If we can have multiple ladders in games cause people don't wanna play it optimal, why shouldn't we put the effort into having a filter, for people that doesn't want to use save states, a function that wasn't aviable for the majority of the ladder, and for people that think it feels wrong. I mean no dis-respect to zewing, edward, or anyone else using savestates to set their flap/course times, but you must see what I'm saying? I'm not asking for a seperate leaderboard, cause that leaderboard would currently have way to few players and would perhaps discourage the people that wanna use save states to set their times. And I don't want that, but I don't want you to discourage me, or anyone like myself, to set times in this game either. That's why I think a filter is the perfect middleground.

 

I hope you guys understand me. I understand you guys that doesn't wanna spend "unneccery" time to set a flap in say fire field, but understand me that consider that the "unneccery" time up to that point, is part of speedrunning f-zero.

Old and tired... ;p
TBK
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Re: F-Zero SNES out on Wii U VC (plus deciding how to allow
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Joel: I still have a problem with throwing the word "cheating" around like it's nothing. When something isn't cheating according the rules and then you come to that place (where said rules are valued and lived by) and openly suggest it's still cheating.. there's just something wrong with that. You can always downplay it and insist on a free opinion (that everybody can have) but this swerves a bit away from just being an opinion. It's a fact that over here what you say is cheating, isn't cheating.. so that's not even a debate. It has also nothing to do with being honest or anything, it's just not very fitting if you get me? I know you could've gotten your point across differently, just a matter of common sense.

Alright, for the filters I actually have to agree with you both Wink The problem is that in the current ladders, once you update one of your times to one that used save states, the old record obviously disappears. If you'd then rank only the non save state times, that ranking wouldn't be complete. So there needs to be a way for players to submit a 2nd time for the same course / flap record, and then depending on the filter you use, the relevant records will show. I doubt there'll be that many players who'll insist on doing it the old way but there is at least some demand (JKL) and I get the reasoning for it. The game was played like that for over 27 years now so there is some relevance in an "old school" ranking like that.

Uchiha Madao
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 the filters thing probably won't happen on the current FZC. you guys should chill a bit on that. it's been considered for the new site that's being made and this talk validates that filters should be a top priority for the new site. they also solve a lot of old issues like PAL vs NTSC, 50 vs 60 hz, SA vs No-SA, etc.

we'd need more patience and for players to keep track of their own times for now. patience is something i'm sure the majority of the F-Zero fans have, going by how things have turned out for this series in the last 13 years.

"Patience is useful in any moment"
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